Consent Is Not a Checkbox - Reimagining Participant Care in Documentary Filmmaking

00:00:06: Hello, and welcome to DOK Industry Podcast season number seven, your podcast about the creative documentary and animated film industries. It is in collaboration with our dear friends, the Programmers of Colour Collective, What's Up with Docs, and Talking Shorts. Big shout out to our partners, supporters, and contributors. Please check them out. And hey, it's good to have you here again. Thank you for listening and enjoy the conversation. Here is your DOK Industry Podcast season number seven.

Toni Achebe Bell: Hello, everyone. My name is Toni Achebe Bell, and I am the creator and host of the What's Up With Docs podcast. And I'm happy to be working with DOK Leipzig again in partnership with the Programmers of Colour Collective and Lu Mukerjee, who is here in the background, making sure that things go well for us today. And I'd like to welcome you to season seven, episode three of the DOK Leipzig podcast series. So today's title is Consent is Not a Checkbox, Reimagining Participant Care in Documentary Filmmaking. And we have three incredible guests with us today. Jennifer Huang, director of The Long Rescue, Margie Ratliff, producer and film subject in Subject, and the founder of Screen Trust, an organization that supports documentary participants, and Stephanie Palumbo, consultant and former director of Film Impact Innovation at Peace is Loud. Welcome, everyone. And just so we can hear who you are, if you could just briefly introduce yourself. Let's start with Stephanie, because you're in my top left-hand corner there.

Stephanie Palumbo: Sure. Yeah, I'm Stephanie Palumbo. And yeah, I'm a consultant now. I was director of Film Impact and Innovation at Peace is Loud, and was there for the past decade. And now I'm an impact and distribution consultant.

Toni Achebe Bell: Thank you, Stephanie. And Jennifer.

Jennifer Huang: Hi, I'm Jennifer Huang. I am the director and producer of The Long Rescue, which is a film that follows the recovery journey of teen sex trafficking survivors in the Philippines over 10 years.

Toni Achebe Bell: Thank you. And last but not least, Margie.

Margie Ratliff: Hi, I'm Margie Ratliff, and I produced the film Subject, and I was also one of the main participants in the film. It gets a little meta. And from that experience, I created the Screen Trust, which I'm the founder and managing director of, and we have just opened up a branch in Germany. So we have California and Nuremberg. It's very exciting.

Toni Achebe Bell: Thank you. Yay. Going global. All right. Well, let's start with you, Stephanie. Love to talk about Peace is Loud. We know we recognize that, unfortunately, the organization is sunsetting, but a lot of the materials will still be available on the website. But Peace is Loud has really made such an incredible, positive impact in regards to your resources and not only support for documentary filmmakers and film participants. And I wanted to get into a little bit around the story, around, like, how you got in to documentary. And I heard this from Margie. And that your grandmother was a Holocaust survivor. And correct me if I'm wrong, she was actually in a documentary that Steven Spielberg produced post his making of Schindler's List. So if you could talk about how that was your entryway into documentary film.

Stephanie Palumbo: And, yeah, and then, you know, sort of not long into working in documentary films was like, wow, this is, this is really different. And, you know, some of that, I think that her, her sort of status as, you know, she's a white woman, right? And I think that, you know, some of it has to do with race, some of it has to do, certainly with filmmakers who are making the films. But also, she was, you know, in this sort of almost protected category, in a way. And then, I think a lot of the, the, you know, stories I started hearing and things I started observing, you know, were with, with people who were entering into a film without being treated with that same respect, without being treated with that same sort of level of dignity and agency that she was treated with.

Toni Achebe Bell: So, thank you.

Stephanie Palumbo: And there's an Audre Lorde essay that I really love that's called The Transformation of Silence into Language and Action, which I don't know if you've read in your, in your program, um, but is really about, like, what happens when, uh, people share their stories publicly, both the, the power that it could give, but also the danger of, of being, you know, put in the spotlight.

Toni Achebe Bell: Yeah, I mean, that's so important. And, um, and that actually segues really great into Jennifer. Um, so Jennifer, um, I know we first met a few years ago and I was just blown away, uh, around your intentionality with your film, The Lone Rescue. So, um, tell us, if you could tell us about the, tell us about the film to also tell us about your enthusiastic, ongoing consent process that you not only created, developed, but also have continued to revamp as necessary.

Jennifer Huang: Some people were extremely nervous. Um, and some people, you know, sort of took the reins and got up and talked afterwards and, um, and were happy to, you know, interact with some of the guests there. So, it was, it was really informative. And that's what we're going to continue doing is just sort of testing, you know, revisiting, discussing, and, um, keep moving forward from there.

Toni Achebe Bell: And you're like, no, I mean, you could tell me the exact quote. Like, I don't want to talk to you about the worst day of my life. Like, and I know you're getting, I paid all this money to play me, you know, it's, it's insane, you know. So, um, if you could just talk about, um, briefly The Staircase, but then also Subject. And also, I mean, since we're talking about the power of storytelling in regards to healing was being in Subject helpful in kind of like processing some of the, the trauma of The Staircase?

Margie Ratliff: So, um, I remember being very impressed with the French film crew when they came in, but it was really my dad and my dad's lawyer's, um, decision to let them, you know, come in and start filming our family. So we, it was about 18 years on and off of them filming us, um, at the beginning, you know, with my dad's trial and everything, it was, they weren't living with us, um, but they were at a hotel, you know, pretty close. And we saw them almost every single day because we were at my dad's trial, uh, and they'd film us on the weekends as well as after the trial. Luckily, not in the mornings. Oof.

Toni Achebe Bell: Wait a minute. 18 years. Wow. So how old were you when they started?

Margie Ratliff: Um, so that was 18 years and then the HBO Max fiction series, which I had nothing to do with. Um, that took over, you know, three or four years with the four year consideration situation.

Toni Achebe Bell: Yeah. Sorry to derail you. I just had like, that was just shocking. That's a long time to have cameras in your face.

Margie Ratliff: It's also a long time for audiences to see me grow up and my siblings grow up. And so I really understand series like, uh, seven, what is it? Seven and up or seven up, something like that. Um, and those kinds of series, even the film, um, Richard Linklater film Boyhood, you know, where he filmed, uh, an actor and his own daughter, um, and, and the mom and dad actors as well.

Toni Achebe Bell: So, um, my, my original question was the, was being a participant in Subject and also producer in Subject like helpful, uh, in regards to the healing, some of the trauma around The Staircase.

Margie Ratliff: So that was a wonderful feeling to feel like, uh, being moved up from co-producer, you know, participant to co-producer to producer of Subject, working so hard, um, on the impact campaign, traveling the world for two years with the film and film festivals. And now I do a lot of, um, speaking engagements with students and Universities. So all of that has helped me kind of own the story of our family a little bit more. And the thing I think of, think about the most is that my nephews who were just babies, you know, at the very last episodes of The Staircase, I think only one of them maybe was alive at the time. And they're, you know, they're going to grow up now and kind of wonder about our family history and they have Subject to go to. They don't just have The Staircase iterations. And I think that is so important for families and for legacies.

Toni Achebe Bell: That is. And I wanted to ask this, Jennifer put this, um, question in the chat. Um, so how was HBO Max able to do the film without your consent? Um, I'm assuming maybe they did it based on an article or something, because sometimes they kind of get away with that by, by doing that, by a reporter writes an article about the issue or whatever, and then they make a film on it. But how could they have done that without your, your permission? I mean, it's your life.

Margie Ratliff: Ooh, well, um, the filmmakers of the HBO Max series, the fiction HBO Max series optioned the rights from the French documentary directors and the French documentary director and the production team gave them access to all of the footage. Even the footage that hadn't gone into the documentary, all of the footage, as well as my footage that I shot as a kid and never consented to sharing.

Toni Achebe Bell: So, um, any lawsuits around that?

Margie Ratliff: I'm not at liberty to talk about that.

Stephanie Palumbo: Can I add something here? I'm just thinking of the brilliant Sonya Childress who talks about how, you know, there's such an emphasis on representation in media, and she has said, like, really, what we need is authorship, right? We need authorship, like, people whose stories are about need to also have the opportunity to tell the stories. And so, Margie, what I'm hearing, too, is, like, with Subject, I feel like, Margie, maybe you had the opportunity for authorship. So rather than just being represented on screen, you actually had the opportunity to shape the story itself, which I think is for participants such a key, yeah, it just feels, like, so significant.

Toni Achebe Bell: So, um, tell us about Screen Trust.

Margie Ratliff: What's going to happen? And I saw Arthur and I both sort of, like, leaned into our screens, and I was, like, I'm not going to let that happen. And Arthur goes, I'm going to take, he's a big guy, he was, like, I'm going to take the microphone out of their hands and kick him out. And we just realized that, like, we were stronger together. And then Jesse was the one who brought up, like, what if we started a guild? What if we started some sort of organization? And that's really where it was born.

Toni Achebe Bell: So shout out to Dr. Kam. We love her. Yes. So what is Screen Trust working on, like, right now?

Margie Ratliff: So we're, you know, we're talking with a lot of different film participants as well as working with filmmakers to help them with their duty of care plans. Hopefully, Stephanie will talk more about duty of care documents and things like that. Yeah, so we're just busy as bees.

Toni Achebe Bell: You know, this is something that happens in the U.S. as well. So, let's, I'll start with Stephanie.

Stephanie Palumbo: And the filmmakers that are trying to do this work, and there's so many who are trying to do it ethically and are really doing it at great expense to themselves as well. And so, I think another thing we need to look at when we talk about these things is filmmaker care and how can a filmmaker care for participants when they're not cared for themselves. But in this case, I mean, they had, you know, this was a very privileged production. They have access to all of these things. They're already award-winning, you know, quote-unquote journalists. There's just no excuse. I mean, it's horrific.

Toni Achebe Bell: Yeah, thank you. And, Jennifer, I'd love for you to speak to the consent piece because they're arguing that because Omar Khan signed this consent or gave consent, that that covers them, you know. And also, I think it's particularly egregious that they're using the First Amendment as an argument.

Jennifer Huang: And adding to this, you know, the colonization. I represent America, the colonizer, one of the main colonizers. And I've had to really think about how does that also affect this consent conversation? You know, and is it making it harder for them to freely say no if they want to say no? So, yeah. Sorry, that's kind of getting away from the original.

Toni Achebe Bell: No, it's totally relevant. And I'll also like to get your comments, Margie, on retrograde. But I also want to kind of pivot back a bit to what Stephanie said about how a lot of the organizations that are trying to do this work around consent and basically ethical consent, enthusiastic consent, are most certainly underfunded. You know, and that is something that needs to shift, you know. And they're doing amazing work. Like, I work closely with Re-Present Media and Jennifer Crystal Chien on many projects. Love her. And she is doing incredible work. Her and her team are doing incredible work with what they have. And if they just get some more funds, speaking to any funders out there who want to support any Re-Present Media or any of the organizations that Stephanie mentioned, like, like, they are out there doing incredible work, like, they are out there doing incredible work, and they just need to be uplifted. So, Margie, if you could just give your comments about, like, your thoughts on Retrograde and the implications.

Margie Ratliff: I'm so, so sorry to the family, and my heart goes out to them, and I feel ashamed to be a part of an industry where that could happen to a participant and their family. And I do want to say, on a different level, when I speak with participants after screening Subject or in general, they want to talk about, you know, their legal rights, their mental health, their safety, physical safety. These days, when I want to, you know, when filmmakers want to talk to me, they want to talk about compensation for participants and what that's about. You know, whether they don't do it, they do it, they blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and keeping their own authorship with compensation. And I just think, yeah, that's a very valuable conversation to be had, and it's about power imbalances, of course. But could we please talk about physical safety and psychological safety of these participants first?

Toni Achebe Bell: Yeah, that is such an incredible point. So, do you feel like filmmakers are a bit behind in regards to, she laughs, on mute.

Margie Ratliff: Well, you know, ITVS did a fantastic study, as well as Peace is Loud. ITVS did this great, all-encompassing study, just trying to get the data out there and the statistics about participant and filmmaker relationships, and one of the key findings really was that the filmmakers who are doing the work and putting in the ethical considerations and the participant care and, you know, have really positive experiences, for the most part, with their participants on an ongoing nature are the underfunded, under-represented filmmakers. And I just think, from all of the, you know, minority groups as well, in America, are doing the work. And Retrograde is not one of those groups.

Stephanie Palumbo: of a consent calendar. And we, when I was at Peace is Loud, we worked together and created a resource on how to turn consent into this ongoing conversation by creating a calendar of all the milestones where the filmmaker loses control or power over decision making and making sure participants can consent truly at every stage of the process. And then at the end, really decide, you know, everything from do they want to appear on, do they want to be in the film? Do they want to appear on camera? Do they want to be anonymous? To are there marketing decisions? Are there, you know, social media decisions, right? Like every aspect of it. And that, yeah, that resource really helps kind of break down the different stages and processes of consent so that it's not, again, like, you know, Jennifer was saying, it's not like a one and done where you just check the box and get it out of the way.

Jennifer Huang: Probably. Does Netflix want us anyway? Probably not. But, um, so we are going to be really, um, slow and careful about how we roll things out, um, and check in with them every single time. But yeah, but I still don't know, really, what's going to happen. I don't know if there's going to be a stalker or a predator watching the film. Like, we, we just, like, there are, there are things that are out of our control. And that, that is one of the things that keeps me up at night, you know?

Toni Achebe Bell: to talk about their ethical considerations and what are their guiding values, um, um, if they're using AI, you know, in, in what way. And then lastly, around safety and security. So how are you protecting your participants through the life cycle of your project from development, um, through distribution? I would actually add impact and then beyond. And, um, um, they also have links to the safe and secure handbook, which Stephanie, you mentioned. So I would just like to kind of get your thoughts around what should filmmakers consider when they're, um, completing this application? What are things they can ask themselves, um, in regards to the communities that we're going to, particularly around connection, accountability and care and safety and security? So Stephanie, I'll start with you.

Stephanie Palumbo: like, um, just felt like the, the person's like, um, true self, like that. It wasn't, it wasn't so polished that they were showing us how, how, how sort of perfect they were around care, but rather, um, yeah, some, something just authentic. Toni Achebe Bell: Okay. Thank you. And Jennifer?

Jennifer Huang: important for me to realize that, that in the Philippines, people did perceive me that way. And that really affects how I am received.

Toni Achebe Bell: There are power dynamics that you, Jennifer, talked about. Like, me being for the U.S., like, gives me a certain level of privilege. I'm also going to be working with people who are, are dealing with closed practices. So how can I write a dissertation about that, um, about those closed practices? And I'm learning all these incredible methodologies from Indigenous communities I'm reading about, like, how to do that, you know, to do the research, but also keep it sacred. So, um, you know, we bring ourselves to these things. Okay, Jennifer was raising her hand.

Jennifer Huang: I just had a question. I'm wondering if you have a way that you work with your students in terms of how do you, because it's really hard to see your own biases and your own blind spots. So how do you get students to start thinking about that or to be able to see their own blind spots?

Toni Achebe Bell: you know? And it's like, okay, that's not true, but I know enough about myself, like, okay, why do I believe that? And let me not impose this on people. So I have, I have, I feel like I have at least that stopgap, but I've had to learn how to, to do that. So it's a process.

Stephanie Palumbo: That's just, it's, it's really simple.

Toni Achebe Bell: Thank you for that, Stephanie. That's great.

Jennifer Huang: I just wanted to follow up on what Stephanie said, which is that, yes, communication is probably the key thing and it's simple, but I also want to acknowledge that it's not always easy and that there are a lot of times when I'm like, okay, I need to talk to my participants and I have to sort of gird myself, you know, it's like, it takes energy. And, you know, because of the time difference, usually I'm doing this like very late at night. And, and so it's, it's definitely another form of work, but like, that doesn't mean it's not important. It's an important part of our work. But I just want to acknowledge that it is work.

Toni Achebe Bell: Yes, it is work. And Margie, I'd love to get your thoughts on the core application and how folks can address questions around connection to community, accountability, care, and safety and security. I know we're actually, people have been, y'all have been really incorporating a lot of these things already into the conversation. So I appreciate that. But that's what happens on podcasts. It naturally happens. It's organic.

Margie Ratliff: And understanding the direction that's going, uh, educating ourselves, understanding that AI, there are cases where it can now unscramble faces, you know, we need to be aware that, uh, the industry is developing in a way that is making it harder to care for participants and harder to keep them safe. And we need to up our resources for that.

Toni Achebe Bell: Oh, wow. Like what you said about the AI, that's incredible. Then, but also it actually makes sense. So, wow, that is really powerful. Um, so I know we've mentioned different resources throughout for filmmakers. So the documentary, um, well, DAWG, um, Documentality, um, but I'd like to actually start with you, Stephanie, um, to kind of talk about some of the resources that are available Peace is Loud. I mean, I know there's sun setting, but the resources will be available for filmmakers, right?

Stephanie Palumbo: places. And we have also a lot of different, um, you know, artist support organizations and mental health coordinators and care coordinators who, um, are using them. And we've been really excited to see them, like, you know, uh, they've been, um, downloaded in, I think, over 74 countries and six continents, um, which is really cool. And, um, so yeah, we've kind of gotten them out there, um, but there's, there's still so much more to be done.

Toni Achebe Bell: That's awesome. And, um, Jennifer and Margie, do you have any other resources to add to that extensive list? Margie, go ahead.

Margie Ratliff: they don't know who to talk to. Like, the producer that brought them on at the beginning is not there at the end and not there in the impact campaign. And so it's really helpful to have, like, one kind of third party out there that's, that's advocating for the participants. So that's what we are kind of offering and starting to roll out with Screen Trust as well.

Toni Achebe Bell: That is amazing. And I love the stamp. That's incredible. And Jennifer, any resources you'd like to share?

Jennifer Huang: my part, from my participants. And so I'm like, okay, I need to work on the communication. Like, that was like a big takeaway. Um, yeah. So I think that, yeah, those are, in addition to everything else that's been mentioned, have been very helpful to me.

Toni Achebe Bell: Thank you. So my cat has joined the conversation, but anyway, welcome Onyx. She was talking earlier. She may contribute, but these are really great. And I also wanted to offer one other resource from, um, Re-Present Media. Um, they had their, um, Centering Survivors series, which they did with, um, video consortium and artworks projects. And actually that came out of the controversy around Sabaya. So that's actually another resource, particularly for people who are dealing with survivors of sexual trauma. So, all right. So we're going to wrap things up. So I always like to give the last word to, um, my guests. So, Stephanie, any last thoughts?

Stephanie Palumbo: the seriousness it deserves, um, is, you know, incredibly, incredibly important. Um, but I, I, I do feel overall, like we are, we are so trending in the right direction because of this sort of collective effort between filmmakers, organizations, um, even funders, you know, programmers. Like, I, I think that there's, um, a sort of turning point that, that happened around the release of subject. And now I think the momentum is, is on the side and it's just a matter of making sure people have everything they need to, to like realize what they, what they want to do and make it possible.

Toni Achebe Bell: Thank you. Jennifer, any last words?

Jennifer Huang: what you don't know and, and to talk to other filmmakers, you know, cause we're all kind of in this boat together. What, what, what Stephanie said is so true. I've heard so many stories of filmmakers who end up having rifts with their, with their participants. And a lot of that comes down to, like, not the, the lack of communication and also the sort of disconnect in, uh, expectations. And so it, you know, it's our responsibility, ultimately, we're the ones who have so much power. Um, and so it's our responsibility to really make sure that expectations are set, that we are listening to what they, their questions are and, um, and, and maintaining those relationships.

Toni Achebe Bell: And last but not least, Margie, final thoughts?

Margie Ratliff: who already understand, you know, we don't have to change their minds. They get it, um, and just making sure that they have the support and resources so that I just have this dream, this exciting idea that all of a sudden, all of the funders and all of the distribution companies are going to be approached by these young filmmakers and they're all going to have line items for participant care, participant compensation, safety, mental health, all of these things, you know, consent calendars and retreats. It's all going to be in every single person's budget. The same way when I was in film school, how we all had like the acting schools release forms, you know, we all had the same release forms. Could we create new forms for students that have it across the board, um, that, that push these things forward so it can be this giant wave of care that happens in the future?

Toni Achebe Bell: And last but not least, um, Sol and Anne, um, Anne is out on leave. Um, so Sol actually quickly picked up the baton and really helped to make this happen. So thank you, Sol and the whole DOK Leipzig team. And goodbye, everyone.